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LITE DAC 60 & 72

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cheapie 發表於 2008-9-29 17:26:44 | 顯示全部樓層 |閱讀模式
Would appreciate comments & advice on these DAC.

1.   Is 72 an upgrade version of 60?
2.   What are the simplest steps to improve 72, such as tube replacement (which brand & designation), etc?
3.   I'm clumsy with a soldering iron and have eye-sight that is too old to do precise DIY work.

Many thanks to experience feverites who are kind and generous to help.

:wink:
kk_ho 發表於 2008-9-29 21:40:02 | 顯示全部樓層

Re: LITE DAC 60 & 72

please post some photo here
SSWONG 發表於 2008-9-30 10:31:41 | 顯示全部樓層
what type of tube use in 70?
 樓主| cheapie 發表於 2008-10-2 10:56:29 | 顯示全部樓層
Thanks for the prompt responses.  I'm buying the 72 used but haven't completed its trade with the seller yet.  Perhaps this Sunday I'll have more info available.

Thanks again.  This site has so many experts who are eager to help.   :wink:
accphoto 發表於 2008-10-2 15:43:57 | 顯示全部樓層

Re: LITE DAC 60 & 72

[quote:fd16eb27e6="cheapie"]Would appreciate comments & advice on these DAC.

1.   Is 72 an upgrade version of 60?   

2.   What are the simplest steps to improve 72, such as tube replacement (which brand & designation), etc?  3.   I'm clumsy with a soldering iron and have eye-sight that is too old to do precise DIY work.   
Many thanks to experience feverites who are kind and generous to help.

:wink:[/quote]

1. No, One use 1702 and one use 1704
2. Buy THE MOST EXPENSIVE TUBE IF YOU CAN AFFORD, like Siemen CCA
3. Sorry, cannot help and should forget about 72.....ALL LIKE DAC Sound so so unless taking major surgery.
 樓主| cheapie 發表於 2008-10-3 11:12:49 | 顯示全部樓層

Re: LITE DAC 60 & 72

[quote="accphoto
1. No, One use 1702 and one use 1704
2. Buy THE MOST EXPENSIVE TUBE IF YOU CAN AFFORD, like Siemen CCA
3. Sorry, cannot help and should forget about 72.....ALL LIKE DAC Sound so so unless taking major surgery.[/quote]

Thanks accphoto for your comments.

1.   Is 1702 better than 1704 or vice versa?
2.   Siemens CCA is at $4500 a pair new; would Telefunken PCC88, Siemens E88CC or Amperex 6922 offer any improvement?
3.   Did you mean LITE (LIKE) DAC are just so so regardless of the model?
What major surgery can one perform?  Anyone willing to help?

Many thanks to all expert feverites again.  Photos will be posted by or before Sunday 5 Oct.
alfcat 發表於 2008-10-3 11:44:01 | 顯示全部樓層
Dear Cheapie,

Accphoto means LITE, I think he just mis-typed the word.

Siemens CCA is VERY expensive. I have one or two pairs of those but NOT matched. I also have Telefunken and other E88CC, ECC88 and alike. Personally, I can hear some differences between them --- but ONLY when you do a A/B comparison right away.

Ha...ha.. you should see Accphoto's LITE DAC-60. HEAVILY modified with Airlink Transformers, Jensen Copper Tube Capacitors, extra clock, BG capacitors, Tango Choke and alike. I think he spent more than TWICE the amount of the DAC-60 on his own. His DAC-60 is a very nice one.


This is the thread:
http://www.hififever.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1817&highlight=dac-60


CAT

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 樓主| cheapie 發表於 2008-10-5 20:14:35 | 顯示全部樓層

No pics

My apologies.  I cannot open the DAC-72 chassis cover to take photos because it is still under warranty.  There is a warranty seal which must be broken to remove the cover.

I guess I'll just have to wait for a few more months, after warranty has expired, before doing anything with / for it.  Or sell it because it seems either it needs the major surgery as accphoto did to his 60 or be abandoned as the present improvement is not that significant with the CD / DVD / SACD players I already have.

:cry:
alfcat 發表於 2008-10-6 10:45:53 | 顯示全部樓層
Dear Cheapie,

剛剛借了Accphoto兄的DAC-60來聽幾天 .... 對自己部CEC DAC 只可以做一個動作 .... 搖搖頭 :shock:

聽琴姐 .... 發覺佢好似唱歌叻咗 ....  :

又可以慢慢儲蓄 ....

CAT
 樓主| cheapie 發表於 2008-10-6 18:04:08 | 顯示全部樓層
Thanks for your suggestion, Cat.  I still have a long way to go in terms of DIY modifications.  As said, too old and eyesight too dim.

Perhaps I may consider the same investment of $5,000 for other, second-hand equipment with similar performance?

ops:
alfcat 發表於 2008-10-7 07:54:29 | 顯示全部樓層
Dear Cheapie,

Never too old to learn anything. Frankly, sometimes I have to take off my glasses to do the soldering too.

There are plenty of tools to help us "old cakes" to do soldering. Just around $ 400 to better ones at $ 800 or so. Magnifying glass with lights on BOTH sides.

For us, LIGHT is very important. Else, we won't be able to see well.

Me and my colleagues all agreed that a good DIY costs only around 1/4 of the price. If you want to beat Accphoto's DAC-60, you perhaps need to buy a HK$ 30K DAC (first hand price). Even sold as second hand, hard to find one cheaper than $ 20K.

CAT
SSWONG 發表於 2008-10-7 10:45:39 | 顯示全部樓層
CAT,

We all having eye sight problem ha..ha...
alfcat 發表於 2008-10-8 00:05:08 | 顯示全部樓層
WINDWSS,

Look at it from the bright side.... we are just mature enough.

I don't really take this as a problem, just need some adjustment for the time being. As there are plenty of tool around, ha..ha...

I just re-arrange some of the components of my Marantz 7. Add a selector for the Phono Input. Still in testing stage.

CAT
SSWONG 發表於 2008-10-8 10:05:39 | 顯示全部樓層
Cat,

That's 1 of the reason i try not to do solder work at night as i really need a bright environment to do so.

I'm just started to DIY a Marantz M-7. (Refer picture)

But i intent to use 12AU7 at the 1st & 2nd stage, last stage using 12AX7 hopefully the sound is acceptable. Hopefully it will have more tube sound and better bass than my single 5687 tube buffer/preamp....(pic attache)

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 樓主| cheapie 發表於 2008-10-8 14:23:04 | 顯示全部樓層
Thanks to WINNDWSS & Cat for all the encouragement.   As I'm getting laid off because of the current financial tsunami, I may now have time to join some of the DIY classes and meet your guys besides modi & kk sirs.  Ha ha!
:wink:
alfcat 發表於 2008-10-8 22:16:07 | 顯示全部樓層
Dear WINDWSS,

I think we are using the SAME Marantz 7 board. What I don't like about this board is it has everything separated into LEFT and RIGHT channel. Yes, I can use TWO separate Power Supplies for it .... but not exactly good for a beginner like me.

This board sounds okay to me with all the Jensens. Cost me a fortune for all of them. I use a separated LITE R-Core power supply as I can't find anything better at a bargain.

Just finished installing the selector last night. Everything seems to be working fine right now. I still believe that the grounding noise is a bit high.... Just wonder whether there is some way to reduce it more.

CAT

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alfcat 發表於 2008-10-8 22:20:22 | 顯示全部樓層
Dear Cheapie,

My goodness ... you got laid off because of the Financial Tsunami? What were you working as? You work with the bank or ...?

I am sorry to hear that. I hope that your family won't be greatly affected by this.

CAT
DUALXEON 發表於 2008-10-9 04:02:51 | 顯示全部樓層
Dear Cheapie,

Sorry to hear you are laid off because of the Financial Tsunami

What can I said. you are not a first or last one. some company started on last year.

肥上瘦下

sample AIG獲美政府相救 主管赴海灘奢華度假


http://hk.news.yahoo.com/article/081008/8/8lob.html
SSWONG 發表於 2008-10-9 09:45:42 | 顯示全部樓層
Cat,

Since we use the same board then better i can get advice from u... : )

Since the board is separate in 2 section, i 'm wondering shall i connect the ground together but worry will create group loop.

Grounding play important role in the noise & hum....so this is something we really need to try and error.

Do u ground the negative pin of filament at each signal tube?
you are using solid state rectifier?? i personally prefer tube rectifier (better imaging, more analog sound)..since u had spend so much on jensen cap, then later just try using rectifier tube lah....
what's the cap value u use? u follow exactly the value given?
alfcat 發表於 2008-10-9 14:07:44 | 顯示全部樓層
Dear WINDWSS,

Not advice ... just sharing. :wink:

I connected the two grounding together in the past and the result is NO GOOD. There are quite some hum and "dee ... dee..." noise.

Accphoto gave me some pieces of advice:

1. For the separated Power Supply, the case is grounded.
2. There is a grounding wire from the Power Supply to the M7 case.
3. RCA ground, Left & Right Channel ground, Volume ground and Tube -ve all are individual wires joining at ONE point grounded with the chasis.

This arrangement seems to be okay so far.

I grounded the -ve wire of the first tube to the Star Ground point mentioned above. I didn't ground each wire.

The rectifier board I am using is a Matisee one. I used the solid state one as it is easy to arrange. If I use Tube Rectifying, I think I need a much larger case. Not much room to house the M7 if I further enlarge it.

I can't exactly recall the values of the caps. I skipped the small value ones, like 0.01uf or so. The rest should follow the value suggested by the board.

Accphoto said this board needs at least 280V to sound good. Mine is set at 280 and it is quite stable.
 樓主| cheapie 發表於 2008-10-10 08:11:36 | 顯示全部樓層
Thanks to members who expressed concern regarding my layoff.  As a senior person, in both age & experience, (project director/architect) of an interior design firm that works mainly for investment banks, I will be the first to go when projects run out.  This has happened to me several times before.  When things pick up I may be recalled.  

The effect isn't that bad.  Now I have time to pursue my other interests.  Ha ha!

:?
alfcat 發表於 2008-10-10 11:07:34 | 顯示全部樓層
Dear Cheapie,

Oh, let's hope that the business will soon turns good and you will have more projects to work on.

For the time being, yeah, you can spare some time to pick up more from DIY and other interests.

I can't recall whether we met before .... I am getting old ....

CAT
SSWONG 發表於 2008-10-10 11:12:48 | 顯示全部樓層
i believe CAT sir is the fastest learner here, within 1 year already become shifu.... : )
 樓主| cheapie 發表於 2008-10-11 14:03:18 | 顯示全部樓層
Cat, you and Accphoto responded to my call for solutions dealing with hum in a Twins Audio preamp.  So we exchanged messages in the forum.  Can't be sure whether we have met in person unless you also enjoy sailing and running (marathons & trailwalkers).  

Think I am even older.  Whenever I go to a race, people come up to greet me by name but I can't recall their names or where I met them though their faces are familiar.  Ha ha!

Yes, I do look forward to having more time to train for races or pick up sailing dinghies again.  I still have to break the 18-hr OTW (full-team finish) and 3.5 hr full marathon barriers yet.  

:
alfcat 發表於 2008-10-11 15:17:46 | 顯示全部樓層
Dear Cheapie,

I recall that posting about the Pre-amp. Just wonder whether I have seen you in any of the Hi Fi Fever Course.

BTW, you are selling your DAC-72. Why?

CAT
ozrayyau 發表於 2008-10-11 15:55:07 | 顯示全部樓層
Hi All,

As I know Lite have 3 DAC with Tube, 60, 68 and 72.

If I don't need the Balance output, which is the best DAC? and which is the best if after Mod?

Thank you.
alfcat 發表於 2008-10-12 18:38:18 | 顯示全部樓層
I just learned that DAC 72 is an IC DAC ... no tubes.
alfcat 發表於 2008-10-12 22:40:19 | 顯示全部樓層
Dear WINDWSS,

Don't laugh at me la ... I am just a "technician" or "soldering boy". There are so many things in theory / background that I don't yet understand.

There are so many "good brothers" here around to teach me all these stuffs. They are indeed "Masters" / Shifu .... NOT me.

I am more interested in Tubes stuffs, probably because it is simplier than transistor ones.

It is indeed NOT easy to put things into our mind once we got old. In the morning, we already struggle hard with our daily work. At night, we try to relax and learn something .... ha..ha..

CAT
SSWONG 發表於 2008-10-13 09:26:35 | 顯示全部樓層
I also prefer tube stuffs with the same reason, the circuit is more simple and thetube is quite tough, it will not burn/damage easily when wrongly connected, besides, it's size is large so easier for connection , soldering ans it look beautiful when place outside the casing....
SSWONG 發表於 2008-10-13 09:33:22 | 顯示全部樓層
Dear Cat,

After look through the M7 picture u had attached, i have some suggestion which u may test out later to see whether can further reduce your hum...

1) from ur photo it seems your ground from RCA out & in is connected to the pcb ground, then only connect to the centre point(with casing) --> i suggest that the gound will connect dirrect from rac grd to the center point.

If we read through the pcb, the ground on pcb is connected with all signal ground which may cause ground loop.
accphoto 發表於 2008-10-13 13:59:31 | 顯示全部樓層

Re: No pics

Just check that DAC-72 does not have the tube output stage. Better change to DAC-60 in this case.


[quote:e5021faaac="cheapie"]My apologies.  I cannot open the DAC-72 chassis cover to take photos because it is still under warranty.  There is a warranty seal which must be broken to remove the cover.

I guess I'll just have to wait for a few more months, after warranty has expired, before doing anything with / for it.  Or sell it because it seems either it needs the major surgery as accphoto did to his 60 or be abandoned as the present improvement is not that significant with the CD / DVD / SACD players I already have.

:cry:[/quote]
ozrayyau 發表於 2008-10-13 17:16:33 | 顯示全部樓層
Thanks All.

So if I like to buy lite DAC with tube, I can pick 60 and 68 only?
AS I know the 68 have a better chips set and balance output, does the 60 is a 24/192 DAC? is it worth to go 68? almost 2k more than the 60 , don't kmow which is a better choice ops:

If Mod 60 VS Mod 68, which one will be the better DAC. of cause both have a same Mod level.

Thanks
alfcat 發表於 2008-10-13 21:55:45 | 顯示全部樓層
Dear WINDWSS,

Ha...ha.. I think the photos didn't say everything. Let me use the attached the ugly drawing to explain.

There are several points connecting to the common chasis ground.
1. ALL RCA ground are connect using copper wire. Then a wire to the common chasis ground.
2. Power Supply Ground connected to its own chasis.
3. Power Supply Unit has a GND wire connected to the M7 common chasis gnd.
4. There is NO GND from RCA IN to the Selector.
5. There is NO GND from PSB OUT to RCA OUT.

Since I use Coaxial cable, I just ground ONE side, NOT BOTH sides for the Signal IN and OUT.

6. LEFT and RIGHT Channel (PSB) ground goes to common chasis ground (2 wires).
7. First 12AX7 -ve goes to common chasis ground.
8. Volume ground goes to common chasis ground.

I guess that is all. I think the "hum" is still a bit high, can't figure out why. Maybe you and Accphoto can point out some mistakes of mine.

CAT

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SSWONG 發表於 2008-10-14 10:31:35 | 顯示全部樓層
Hi Cat,

Below are some of my opinion, i migh be wrong:

1) U r using 1 of the grnd point at PCB as your common chasis ground --> i feel that the common chasis ponit is too near to the signal path. For me, i always try to put the common chasis point far away from signal area and close/near to the power cord terminal.

2) 1 set of your RCA ground is connect to another grnd on pcb then only to the common chasis ground --> (become like 2 point ground), i will ground it dirrect to the common chasis ground.

3) since your common chasis ground on the left channel, then just use 1 cable to connect the right channel to the commmon chasis grn. (left & right channel shld only have 1 contact point with 1 cable, if more than 1 point may induce grn loop)


If that's still not reduce your hum then try to replace the 1megaOhm resistor with 470k.
alfcat 發表於 2008-10-14 10:53:14 | 顯示全部樓層
Dear WINDWSS,

I think the diagram didn't show clearly as well... ha..ha..

I DID NOT use the PCB ground point as the common chasis ground. Instead, the point is the HOLE on the PCB to put the screw in to fix the PCB onto the chasis.

But I totally agree with what you said. I think it is better for me to move that point close to the Power Area rather than the Signal Area.

Point 2.

I don't really get your meaning. For RCA IN, there is NO GND going to the selector. For Signal OUT to the RCA, there is NO grounding at the RCA socket.

As the Left and Right Channels are separated on the PCB (2 holes), each Channel has ITS OWN wire leading to the Common Ground; I did not connect Left Gnd to Right Gnd and then to common gnd.

Point 3.

As mentioned above, the Common Gnd actually is NOT the Left Channel Ground. It is the hole for screwing the PCB onto the chasis. Maybe I should take a Macro view so that you can see better ... really sorry for the confusion.

Your advices are really good. I will double check everything and move the common ground point far away from the signal area tonight (if I can afford the time) and see what happens.

As you have said before, it is an interesting game about this grounding issue.

CAT
accphoto 發表於 2008-10-14 12:47:52 | 顯示全部樓層
[quote:1c5bccb0e8="ozrayyau"]Thanks All.

So if I like to buy lite DAC with tube, I can pick 60 and 68 only?
AS I know the 68 have a better chips set and balance output, does the 60 is a 24/192 DAC? is it worth to go 68? almost 2k more than the 60 , don't kmow which is a better choice ops:

If Mod 60 VS Mod 68, which one will be the better DAC. of cause both have a same Mod level.

Thanks[/quote]

Do not buy DAC 68. it does not sound great after modification. 68 using AD1853 which is quite different from 1704.

The extra 2K is better used for modification of component for DAC60.

DAC 60 can upstream to 96K, I have not try 192K  and not used whether it can goes as high.
accphoto 發表於 2008-10-14 12:50:25 | 顯示全部樓層
Ha Ha, for the point that connect to the Chasis, it is really depends on your luck sometimes. Some one prefer close to the power, some perfer close to the signal. Let see how it goes.
alfcat 發表於 2008-10-14 16:07:17 | 顯示全部樓層
Dear Accphoto,

You are right. I think I sort of followed similar arrangement last time. I am not sure whether I got poor memories or what .... I have the feeling that it is much quieter last time.

Anyway, it is always fun to play with this toy. As I have said, if I can afford the time tonight, I will first double check to make sure all the groundings are proper and second, perhaps I try to move the common ground to another point / location and see how it goes.

CAT
SSWONG 發表於 2008-10-15 11:11:16 | 顯示全部樓層
Cat,

May be i read wrongly your diagram??

For your RCA out, i saw your ground is connected to the pcb ground near the sgignal out then only to the chasis main---> my suggestion is that this RCA ground shall connect direct to the rca main chasis ground.

When we check or read through the PCB, u will find the ground for PCB (include grn for signal in & out, grn of cathode resistor and so on) all are link together. So i personally feel that it is not so good to mix all ground together.

That's my preference is that RCA grn(in & out) will be sepaate from the grn for chatode bias resistor's grn.

the grn for power supply will go direct to the grn of power cord's grn. The 1st capacitor (the 1 closest to the transformer) will use a separate ground wire direct connected to power cord's grn. Meaning that grn for pwr supply will not connected to the main chasis grn where a lot signal' (small signal)s is there.
alfcat 發表於 2008-10-15 23:47:51 | 顯示全部樓層
WINDWSS,

I dis-assembled the whole wiring again .... sigh. I finally realised what caused the problem.

I think it should be called "interference" rather than ground problem. It is "ng....ng..." rather than "deeee.... deeee..."

The Toroidal Transformer is placed on top of the Ladder Volume Switch. The volume switch was on the other end of the case in the past. Now I put the selector there and so the volume switch is now on the left, right above the Transformer.

Once I move the transformer away, the M7 becomes quiet as it used to be.

But still, I re-arranged all the wires and it is a mess now inside the case. No time to fix the wires in a "good looking" manner yet.

CAT
SSWONG 發表於 2008-10-16 15:48:11 | 顯示全部樓層
Good news, finally u find the cause of the hum......

My normal practise is power section will be far away from signal section...

u really fast, my maranzt M7 is not yet completed, recently feel not energy to do soldering work at night..... hopefully by this weekend my preamp will be completed.....
alfcat 發表於 2008-10-17 08:29:03 | 顯示全部樓層
Dear WINDWSS,

I need your help on certain issues.

1. When you are done with the Rectifying Section, can you post some photos here? As you said you use Tube rectifying instead of IC, I would like to know how it can be done.

2. Can you draw me your wiring diagram? As I recall I need to add some additional wiring for this board. e.g. I have to connect wires from the first 12AX7 to the other 12AX7 since there are no leads on the board. And, how do you share the the B+ power? You solder a wire from one channel to another? I just wonder how you do this part.

Thanks in advance.

CAT
SSWONG 發表於 2008-10-20 10:34:12 | 顯示全部樓層
Hi,Cat,

Just finish asemble the Mrz M7 last night, too tire till accidently broke 1 pcs of my 5687 tube..... money gone...

Attach is photo of it, still need fine tuning as got LF hum, should be dur to insufficient capacitance, on the pcb suppose to put 2 pcs of 220uF/450V but i only put 10uF/450V as my 220uf still not arrive.

What the power rating of your power supply? my 1 is 350V-0-350V at secondary, anyway even a 280v-0280 will be sufficient.

For tube power supply, my rectifier tube is 6X4. and i just use normal C-RC filter to obtain the voltage i need.... the value of R is depend on your DC output after rectifier.

current running at 295V & 275 voltge, need to fine tune by changing the R or adding another C-R-C.

Refer my diagram, the 3.3k is to reducue the voltage to tube place as 350V ia a bit high, 6X4 tube's max rating actually ~350-400 dc out.

R1 is to reduce the voltage in my case as i only got 450V cap, so my 295V is in between R3 &R4, and 275 volt is after the R4.  in this case i use 2 pcs of 220k as bleeder resistor. My R4 is ~3.3k which is cause ~20V voltage drop.

In this case if i which to get ~280V & 260V then i just need to increase either R2 or R3 or place 1 more stage of CRC.

for 12ax7 filament i use dc, and connect them using wire from the bottom and the negative just connect using 1 wire to the ground.

Later need to add a metal separator in betweent pwer & signal section...

For B2+, i use 2 pcs wire same length connect to left & right B+ then connect this 2 wire with another wire to the power supply. (i prefer a balance, same distance for both left & right)

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alfcat 發表於 2008-10-20 22:50:17 | 顯示全部樓層
I will try to understand that ... It is not easy to see what you have near the transformers .... should be your C-RC circuit?

Now, busy playing with the Pass Labs 1.7
SSWONG 發表於 2008-10-21 11:44:44 | 顯示全部樓層
Attached the lates update for u after i make some adjustment last night to get closer B+ Voltage.

Rt - is to cut down the voltage to the plate of 6X4, u don't need that if your transformer is 300V-0-300V and below if use 6X4.

R1--> i use it to reduce surge from the 0.68uf cap (without R1 also ok).  For tube rectifier, 1st cap normally shall not larger than 10uF as the rectifier tube don't like larger uF (the surge may damage the tube)

the other cap & resistor combination is just simple CRC filtering circuit.
R1+R2+R3+R4 will determine the B1+ voltage and will determine the voltage of the cap u want to use.

the value of your R will be determine by how much current use so u need to test out..

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SSWONG 發表於 2008-10-23 11:52:21 | 顯示全部樓層
Dear Cat,

I accidentaly solve reduce a lot my LF hum by just changing the connection point og 1 ground wire.

In case u r using DC filament for the 12AX7 tube. the ground wire should be connected at the negative of the capacitor whuich is closest to the bridge rectifier.
SSWONG 發表於 2008-10-23 14:05:43 | 顯示全部樓層
Cat,

refer my picture, i just shift the white ground cable from position A to B, the hum had reduce >80%....

Finally now can start to enjoy the music....

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alfcat 發表於 2008-10-23 14:35:57 | 顯示全部樓層
WINDWSS,

I can't locate your ground cable and the points A, B ..... did I over-look something?

CAT
SSWONG 發表於 2008-10-23 15:48:49 | 顯示全部樓層
: ) on left corner, the white cable is at the position B  now, previously on position A. A& B is just several cm distance.

u may neey to click the picture, when in larger view u will able to see the word A & B
SSWONG 發表於 2008-10-23 15:49:47 | 顯示全部樓層
lower left
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